CSA Scores are complex and, just like with anything else in life, if you are at an informational disadvantage, you're more likely to lose. We want to see our trucking companies win, so in this episode we get into the nitty-gritty of how YOU can influence, optimize, hack, and improve your CSA scores for the betterment of your company.
Highlights from the conversation:
Derek Rogers 0:05
Welcome to Safe as Truck, the podcast focused 100% on breaking down the challenges of compliance and safety in the trucking industry. Safe as Truck is powered by LogRock, the only digital tool built exclusively to help America's trucking companies stay compliant and stand strong when the DOT or lawsuits come knocking at your door. Now, let's jump straight in with our host, Hunter Yaw.
Hunter Yaw 0:34
Everybody we have with us the great the legend John Seidl, and truckingwins.com. Let me tell you guys, if there's anything you don't know, and need to know about safety and compliance, and pretty much no matter who you are, there's more that you should know about safety and compliance if you're running a trucking company, or if you're a director of safety at a trucking company. This is the man and the resource that he has put together truckingwins.com. I'm telling you, it's where you got to go. because everything you need to know—all the mistakes that you're making that you don't know about, all the tricks, all the tools, all the little details that you've probably missed—that's where they live. So go have a listen.
But in the meantime, we're very lucky to have John with us today to share some of that wisdom, to share some of those insights. And specifically, our topic today, I think is one that people really need to pay attention to because we had another conversation with John talking about what happens when the DOT comes knocking on your door and why they choose to knock on your door. And the number one thing that we mentioned there was your CSA score CSA score CSA is so today we want to really focus in on that we want to double click on CSA scores. Our topic today is how to hack your CSA scores. So John, let's get going. Let's jump straight in. First of all, what is the CSA score?
John Seidl 1:44
I appreciate you having me on here, Hunter. Knowledge is power. And we need to put knowledge out to everybody whether it was the last podcast or this one. But listen, CF safeguards a database filled with inspection over a two-year period, right, and crashes over a three-year period. And those inspections and crashes are weighted more recent ones hurt you more than ones that are a little bit older and it takes a while for them to fall off. Who uses CSA scores. Insurance. Right? The government. These nuclear verdicts I know you had a podcast with that attorneys use it against truck companies, shippers, receivers and brokers. So they're all looking at CSA scores. And the bottom line is high CSA scores are going to cost you money one way or low CSA scores are going to save you money one way or another and keep the Feds out a year out of your house.
Hunter Yaw 2:38
We could all use that. What does CSA stand for?
John Seidl 2:42
Every once in a while when I'm on the radio or I'm on a podcast, they asked me that. You know what it stands for? It stands for keep your scores low. Do you can save a bunch of money. The government's big on acronyms. I'm a US Army veteran. So acronyms are the way of the world right and the military or the federal government. I used to work for it. Man, I don't even know what it stands for other than control your roadside inspection.
Hunter Yaw 3:05
That's it. You heard it here from John. CSA stands for keep your scores low. That's the philosophy. We like that. And so let's be literally let's take that approach. And I like the way that you think about these things. You have a very, you have a very practical approach, right? You obviously know the law backward and forwards. You were with the D O T, you were with the FMCSA you've been on the other side of this, you can quote line and verse and chapter all of these regulations. But what we like is the way that you break it down for folks so that they can actually understand, think it through and understand how it applies to their business. So that's what we want to focus on today is thinking about CSA scores. Forget all the complexity, forget all the things that you've heard that you didn't quite understand. We're going to make it straightforward for you. And we're going to focus on ways to hack your CSA scores. Now, what do we mean by hacker CSA scores? Of course, John, what is the best way to have good CSA scores?
John Seidl 3:54
Well, I'll tell you there's a very interesting thing. I won't say names of companies or people. But there's a really well-known guy out there that has had a company and he's analyzed CSA scores. And everybody's really impressed with that company in that guy. But when it comes down to it, is you don't get any violation. And you don't have any practice. It does not matter what the formula is for CSA. It doesn't matter how you're analyzing trends and violations, if you just prevent violations at roadside and prevent crashes, who cares how they calculate it. And then you don't even have to challenge any of these roadsides because they're all clean. So what's the best way to hack? Learn the regulations, make your drivers understand them, stress the importance of them, have a good safety culture and improve your operation, right. And that's where trucking winds comes in. We're trying to help people understand these rules so they can stay compliant. That's the first step.
Hunter Yaw 4:52
That's it. And we want to be clear on that, that the best way to have low CSA scores is to have fewer crashes to have fewer incidents, to have a better safety culture to have a better fleet. Now, having said that, it is a process, there are rules, there are regulations, there is an element of, for want of a better term bureaucracy about this. And it is important. After you thought about your safety culture after you've made sure you can be as safe as you can, but you still know the rules of the game. I think of it a little bit like football, a great coach knows that the best way to get to the Super Bowl, and to win the Super Bowl is to have a great team have a team that's better than the other team. However, you got to know the rules, you got to know how to manage the clock, you gotta know how to manage the refs, you got to know how to have your entire team be real tight on the number of guys on the field, and staying on-site and everything else, right. So the best way to win is to have the best team. But at the same time, you got to understand these rules, you got to understand the nuance of how to manage that system, how to manage those details, to support your effort to win and to be as safe as possible, because they're beyond just the pure safety. Just like beyond just being a better team. There is an element of the game of the rules of the tips and the tricks and the hacks. And that's what we want to focus on today. Our first message is be safe or have a serious safety culture. But beyond that, what we're going to get into today is a little bit of the nitty-gritty of how you can actually execute that in detail and make sure that if you have a great safety culture, you don't still get into trouble because you're not thinking about the system. And you're not thinking about exactly how best to play within those rooms. So let's jump straight in. John, what are the most common mistakes that you see people make? What do you think people should be thinking about? Let's get right into the nitty-gritty.
John Seidl 6:34
We already said prevention's number one, but what some companies wake up one morning and their CSA scores are a little out of control or a lot out of control. Right? So now you have a dilemma. I can do all the training I want, but the database is already filled with problem. All right. So how does CSA work? Well, let's start before we get into something called data cues, where you actually challenge the roadside inspectors, basically saying, you did something wrong on the inspection, or you use tickets, or you do crash data cues. Before we get into that, which will be in a little while here in this podcast. Let's focus on the math, the math behind CSA, there are people that are out there that think I'll just increase my power units, and I'll increase my mileage. And if I just make my company look bigger than like, fourth wall won't all go down. Like every category. Well, that's not true. unsafe driving in the craft door. They are connected to power unit and mileage, but you just can't put all the mileage and power units you want. There's actually a specific formula, where they take the total points, divided by your average power unit time, something called the utilization factor, then people are like, well, what's the utilization factor? Again, learning these nuances and learning the playbook of the game to win the game. That's the important part. Do we have a training module on? How do you calculate unsafe driving and the crash? What are the inputs? And I'll tell you what's funny, man, is we go back to like grade school, you got a math problem with a numerator and a denominator, those words do. You take the numerator divided by the denominator, and it gives you your measure and your measures compared against other truckers and that's where your score comes from. Some make it feel real complicated, but it's really not. It's that now the other CSA scores, it's a number of relevant inspectors. All right, so the more inspections you get, within a given category, that can reduce your measure, because they take the total points divided by the number of relevant inspections, and that drives down your score. But then, if you have too many inspections, it might put you in a different peer group where you're being compared against companies that are better, and your score could go up. So it's a delicate balance, you want more inspections, or don't care, what suits your power units be? What did your mileage be? It should be the truth, honestly. But you have to understand how those numbers play into the overall score.
Hunter Yaw 9:19
Got it. So I'm brushing the cobwebs off of my old grade school math, I've got my numerator, I've got my denominator, I've got my head around the utilization factor. I am now looking at my fleet specifically. And I'm saying okay, how do I need to apply this? What is the way that I should be thinking about whether it's maximizing miles, whether it's thinking about the number of inspections? Or is that not the right thing to be thinking about at all? Because as you said, that can be a very tricky thing to be playing with, right? Where you might actually think that by adding power units or adding miles or getting more inspections, you're, you're doing yourself a favor by basically increasing the denominator, right. But in fact, you mentioned, for example, that might put you in a different day. different buckets, because the FMCSA thinks of these fleets is putting them in different buckets. Right? And it's almost like leagues right? You got your double A or triple A and your and your majors and you want to make sure that you're playing in the right size bucket because otherwise you're getting held to a different standard. Is that right?
John Seidl 10:16
The end results of those, 100% right comfort. But what we have to make sure we focus on with this podcast because some people are literally like, you can't just add power units, you knowing that you can't just put mileage that isn't yours, because some companies will take this math problem, manipulate the numbers to drive down their scores. And that's not right, either. But at the same token, you have to update your unit and your mileage minimum every two years. There are some companies that think you can only do it every two years. Well, listen, man, if you started with 20 trucks, and a year from now you have 120 trucks, they have something in FMCSA. That's called routine update. You need to make sure you're updating your power units as mileage as time goes on. So you're getting an accurate integrity, proper CSA score, based on the real data you have. I can't tell you how many companies had one a truck grew to 100 left in it one either CSA score went up because they weren't doing the routine update? Because they thought they weren't allowed to no way are we saying to lie on the power unit, the mileage you have to understand the math problem. And you have to update it accordingly to keep your CSA scores in control.
Hunter Yaw 11:33
Makes sense. What other aspects of CSA scores, the way that they're calculated, can you influence or optimize or hack or improve as a trucking company? What else should folks be looking at?
John Seidl 11:46
Now we're going to talk about data queues in a minute, but I just laugh because I'm gonna tell you a story. And I didn't tell this trucker to do it, I just educated him on how CSA works. Remember how I told you number of relevant inspections can drive down your measure? So if you get a clean inspection for your logs, meaning hours of service, your measure will go down. I had a trucker he had like four trucks, right? And he said, John, I'm just over the threshold for the alert in my experience that's coming up and I don't want the Feds coming in. What can I do? I said, Well, I can't data cue the violations because they're all legit. You can't change your power units and mileage because you had a change in your operation. But you could go get inspected. And he said, I tried they won't affect me. He removed his front license plate. He removed the name and DLT number off the sign on the door which are two violations. Yep. But they're not logged violated. And then he said, Hey, John, will this removing my front plate and removing my DLT number even treat any other CSA score? And I'm like, actually, it's not a safety-related. So their CSA methodology says nope. So he removed the plate, removed his name and DLT number got to violators got a clean a log inspection, drove his measure down, drove his score down came out of the alert for his renewal. And he said how did I do that? I said, Well, honestly, you violated two sections of law. So you look better in the other section? Did I encourage that? No. Did he do it? Yeah. Is it ethically hacking? I know we'll just call it hacking.
Hunter Yaw 13:24
Oh, it's interesting. And again, the whole point here is to educate folks about how this system works, right? We didn't make the rules. We didn't write the rules. We didn't design this thing. They're just telling you how it works. And we're gonna help folks understand how to play within that reality. We've all watched a football game where somebody wins by driving down the clock, and you think is that the right way to win or not? Doesn't matter. It's the result at the end of the day by playing by the rules that somebody else set. That's it, man. So that's a very, that's a very helpful example.
John Seidl 13:53
It's no different than the tax code, when you think about it, exactly how many companies are always trying to find some loophole in their taxes? And they're not trying to hurt, nobody could be subject to an audit. And again, we're not here to tell people to do it, but it's the way in the world.
Hunter Yaw 14:12
100%. Are there other aspects of CSA you want to cover? Or should we jump over to data queues?
John Seidl 14:19
That's a good overview of CSA scores, and data queues are simply a way that you can challenge every roadside inspection and every crash. If you challenge them through the safe that issued them, and you win that challenge, they will either remove or reduce the severity of how it affects your CSA score. And there are many different ways to do data queues.
Hunter Yaw 14:47
Got it. I gotta tell you, man, I've had conversations with more fleet owners than you would think, when I mentioned data queues, they say, what data? Whose data? Data piece, data seized, have status. What are you talking about? Have you found that as well? Are you finding there fleets out there that aren't even aware of that data queue exist? Or if they do know, it's out there somewhere, I don't really know what it is or how it works?
John Seidl 15:11
I would tell you this man, there is a lot of misunderstandings about data. And some people have gotten it in their head that you need a citation, or you can't do any data to if you get a warning, you can't challenge a warning. You can fail in every single violation whether it's a ticket or a warning on the merit of what they violated you for if I had a buck for every data Qi plate I may have a buck for every day do I want a book for every data cue that I want? I'd be a rich man right so so ultimately there are different facets to data use one example is crafted right that's one CFA score. There are many companies that completely misunderstand when they can and cannot date it cue a crack.
Hunter Yaw 15:58
When can I or when can I not data queue a crash? Let's go straight in now. Let's help people understand, and this is a good example. Let's get specific. What do people need to know? I want folks listening to this to ask themselves, did I know this? And if the answer is no, and we're today, we're not gonna be able to give you all the answers. This is too big a topic. We're not going to be able to get into all the details. You want to learn more I'm telling you go to trucker Woodstock, calm, you're not gonna regret it. But let's get let's dig into crashes. Just as a specific example. This can be a good litmus test for our listeners. If you hear this and you think I knew all that. Good for you, man, you're on top of it. But let's make sure that you do because if you don't, it means you got more to know.
John Seidl 16:33
What's interesting is we can go through each CSA basic. And I can give you examples of data queues of all but I love that. Let's talk about that.
Hunter Yaw 16:39
Let's do that, but let's start with crashes. Absolutely.
John Seidl 16:42
All right so, prior to 2019, any DOT recordable crash hurt your score. And there was nothing you could do about it. They had a pilot project where you could like, try to data cue it? And they would say yes, you're right. It's not your fault, but they would keep your score. Well, they exchange that program. And there are people out there now that still have no idea that phase, you can challenge a crash, that is not your fault, meaning it's non-preventable by going through the data cue system. And if you win that challenge, it stays in there, but they remove it from the calculation in your scores. Now, what's weird about it is there's a PDF file. And you have to know where that PDF file is. You gotta know what the criteria is for challenging. And, and there's a lot of people are like, this isn't fair. Listen, they case the program, they have like square pegs to fit on a round peg to fit in a round hole. You can't put a square peg in a round hole. So this criteria outlines specific crashes that you can challenge. Even if you don't think it's your fault, but it doesn't fall in those criteria. You can't challenge. So you get the crash report, you read it, you apply it to this document, you compare the two, if it qualifies you do a data queue, it's gone. Right? So that's one way to challenge crashes. A second way is of even meeting the definition of a do key crash. Well, if I have the crash report, and I'm reading it for the preventability program, why wouldn't I see if it didn't even meet the definition? So you need to go into 49 CFR Part 390. Click on accident and read the definition. And in there it says disabling damage. All right. What is disabling damage me? You go into 49 CFR Part 390 and the definitions and you read the tabling map. One example of that is a flat tire. I'll ask you, Hunter. Do you think a flat tire where the vehicle can't be driven away? There's no air in the tire is disabling damage? What do you think?
Hunter Yaw 18:50
It doesn't sound like it to me. I don't know.
John Seidl 18:52
Yeah. So disabling damage precludes departure. You would think that a tire with no air in it that's flat precludes departure where you can drive away. But there's an exception in the definition that says tire disablement, even without a spare tire is excluded from disabling damage. So if I got a crash report in front of me, where the car was towed, our truck drove away but the car was towed only because of a flat tire that's chosen our CSA score. But you can say Ah, all it was was a flat tire and they remove it from your score because it doesn't meet the definition of disabling them. You got to know what these definitions are and you can assume you know what to say like that.
Hunter Yaw 19:37
I love it. Let's pick another category. We did crashes. What's another good one?
John Seidl 19:42
I got a customer once they had a couple 1,000 trucks because they went on a podcast like this and they listened and they called me up and now they're a consulting customer. And the basis for them calling me was a data queue I explained for cell phone. Now, this is gonna blow you away because it kind of blows me away. But I think it's funny. It says in the regulation, you can't tax using adult text on a cell phone 100% You can't use it says you can't use a mobile device, a handheld mobile device? Well, most people would think using a handheld mobile device means you have a cell phone to use it for some purpose that if you go into the regulate and read the definition, using a handheld mobile telephone requires you to dial or answer, dial or answer to conduct a voice communication, reach for the cell phone, right. So if you're using a cell phone to watch a movie, it doesn't meet the definition of using a handheld mobile telephone, because you're not dialing or answering for voice. And you're not reaching for it, and having it in your hand for voice communication. So it's like a loophole, you can actually get an inspector that pulls the driver over, right come up for using a mobile and handheld mobile telephone. And in the notes, they say he was watching Netflix, you can gate a cue that get it removed from that violation. There's another violation in the ring that says you can't use equipment or accessories that are unsafe. You would agree that using a phone to walk Netflix is unsafe? Yes, of course, of course. But you've got to queue it and say, remove this for using handle mobile telephone, things the violated to using equipment or accessories that are unsafe, you're probably saying to me 100. What's the difference? Well, using a handheld mobile telephone is 10 point, using additional equipment or accessories is 0.1. So you can walk what Netflix on a phone and get violated under the one second have a zero effect on your score. You can use a phone to dial or answer with it in your hand without hands free. And you get 10 points. Does it make any sense to you?
Hunter Yaw 22:00
Like we said, we didn't write the rules. That's great. Yeah, that's crazy. So let's pick another because we've got our we got our categories of our CSA scores. Right. So we've talked about crashes. That was unsafe driving, is that right?
John Seidl 22:14
Yeah. unset. It's an example of cell phone use, like using a handle mobile telephone or texting fits in the unsafe driving category. And that could hurt your score in that area. So that's just a little hack for that.
Hunter Yaw 22:26
There we go. Let's pick another category. We did crashes, we did unsafe driving, what's another good category?
John Seidl 22:32
I want a data queue in the state of Washington. And it was because there was a nail in the tire. Not a ticket, we talked earlier "warning or ticket," there was a nail in the tire. Well, the officer didn't document any audible, don't listening, any audible air leak. So having a nail in the tire. That doesn't mean it's all the way through and penetrating all the rubber, maybe it's just a nail head. So if you pulled the nail head out, there'd be no leak. Right? So is it a violation to have a nail and a tire? No, unless there's an audible yearly? Well, we got written up in the state of Washington, I did a data cue and they denied it at first, and then I did a rebuttal. Because CSA a nonprofit organization called the commercial vehicle safety Alliance, they have an effect your bulletins and operational policies? Well, in operational policy 15, it says, applying BI CVSA supported by the Fed that you have to have an audible Heerlijk a nail in the tire by itself is not a violation. I had to give that operational policy to the state of Washington, I had to educate them on the inspection criteria. And at the end of the day gets looked that was removed a full 10 Point tire violation on a service was removed because I had information that I could present to them in an articulate way to remove it. So now maintenance score goes down, the cell phone app store goes down, the crash act, score goes down and we can go on our disservice. Right? That's a big one for people. I have a company that decided to put ELD in their truck. They decided to What do you mean they decided to jump. They were exempt. They were 150 Air mile radius short-haul company. But instead of just running timecards, which they're allowed to do under the 150 air mile, they chose to put an ELD in so then they start getting all these violators for no instruction card no blank settled law all that. Well guess what? All I need is a timecard. If I'm a short-haul company and the short-haul driver, and I put an ELD in and you tried to write me up for an ELD violated my data cute simply says if not an ELD it's an advanced timecard I captured time, start time finish total hours. That's all I have to capture the local company. Because I choose to use it doesn't mean it's an ELD. And I get those violations removed all the time. So if you're an intermodal carrier out there, like a rail yard guy, you put an ELD in rail yard guys are usually local, you need to call me up because I got data queued for you.
Hunter Yaw 25:22
Alright, so we've covered unsafe driving, we've covered hours of service, what else we got? We got maintenance with it with the nailhead. No, no audible Erlang. Are there any other categories that we missed?
John Seidl 25:33
Yeah, we do. Let's do driver fitness for a minute. This is an interesting one, drivers get written up for not being able to speak English, right, not understanding the English language. I have a memo from the Fed that basically say, as long as you can complete the inspection, that is sufficient that you technically don't even have to read or speak English, as long as the inspection is able to be completed. And there's a paragraph that says, use of an interpreter's cue card phone app to help you complete that inspection should not constitute a violation of not being able to speak English. Again, if I had $1 for every English-speaking violation, I got removed using that memo from the Fed. I'd be I guess I do have $1 for all that. So, so ultimately, it doesn't work as easy as I'm saying because some states don't agree with it. So I'll say it because I'm not saying a person. I submitted it under the state of Tennessee. And the state of Tennessee is like I don't agree with the feds memo. And I think that the Fed memo is wrong. Well, who are you to say if a federal enforcement memo is wrong? So I went to the trucking company and I said, Hey, man, I'll push this all the way up to headquarters and, and hold the state of Tennessee accountable. And that trucking company said, I don't want to be on the banned list. You don't feel like Santa is bad list for the state of Tennessee for John, you want to stick to my seven data cues. We'll just let Tennessee feel like they want one over on us. I said Oh, can you man, you're the customer. So I didn't push that. But I want to probably want to fight this.
Hunter Yaw 27:19
We're gonna see you at the Supreme Court one of these days man with a data queue right in front of you. It's like those guys in the robes and the whole thing your throw out that fed memos. I love it. I love it. So I so that was driver language falls under driver fitness. Is that right?
John Seidl 27:33
Driver fitness. Yep.
Hunter Yaw 27:35
And we've covered maintenance, we've covered... I guess what's left is drug and alcohol, right?
John Seidl 27:38
Yep, and hazmat. So we'll do a drug and alcohol one. I have a company and I can't say the name. It's because we don't do this on a podcast, whatever. But I have a company and the driver would bring dangers like sages to set up for concerts like rock concerts, things like that. They would drive their tractor-trailer with the face, and then they would send it up. Well, then they spent a lot of time at Hotel. So this driver had dropped the trailer with all the equipment for the stage for a concert. And then he had Bob tailed over to a hotel. And now he's in a hotel with the truck. And he decides he's going to leave the hotel to go get some food at Walmart and come back. So he got some food, but he also got a six-pack of beer. He put it in his truck, and you can't have alcohol in your vehicle. It's not part of the manifest his motor, you're in violation. So he got a violation. I David queued it under the premise of three 90.3 S3, he was occasionally transporting personal property, not in the furtherance of a commercial business nor for compensation. It was his personal groceries. He was not being compensated, not furthering the business. He was going from the hotel to get some food and come back to the hotel. And I ended up winning that data cue in the drug and alcohol area because I used a little-known exception in three. So you can always make it challenging, win them all. But if you're right, fight like that. If you're right, fight. I can get a shirt that says that TruckingWins: if you're right, fight.
Hunter Yaw 29:19
If you're right, fight. I love it. We're gonna get you a coffee mug, you gotta get a baseball cap. You got to get the whole merchandise.
John Seidl 29:26
I'll get it tattooed right across my back: if you're right, fight.
Hunter Yaw 29:30
That's it. I love it. If you're right, fight. So we got one last one.
John Seidl 29:34
The last one's hazmat. We got hazmat. Alright, so I used to be a hazmat Agent with the FAA. So there are a lot of different hazmat violators that you can or can't fight. The interesting part about hazmat is it's very difficult to work your way through the hazmat table. When an officer looked up a product and go through the hazmat table. They think they've understood every little special provision Every little packaging exempts right? And then they write us up even though that's not the case. So here's a hazmat need to do. That's kind of nice. Let's say you're pulling a trailer. And the officer breaks the seal on the trailer to inspect the has hazmat can have any relative motion, regular freight, you can have a little bit of motion, as long as it doesn't affect the maneuverability stability of the vehicle, but hazmat, you got to block and break that it can't move at all. So officer opens the door, pops the seal, looks, and it's not secured inside, right, the motor carrier for the violation. The motor carriers like Columbite supposed to know, the pipeline Hazardous Materials Safety Administration has interpreted. And they've written one that says if the driver of the motor carrier did not have access to see them load that trailer, because the steel was placed before he had access to watch it, then that they differ offer or violation and should not be issued to the motor carrier. So it was on the motor carrier, see if they thought I took the inter attached it got a statement from the shipper that they didn't have access to it when they loaded it violated remote. She got to know more than they do. Again, if you're right in BI.
Hunter Yaw 31:19
If you're right, you need to fight. I love it. All right, so John, we got all these different categories. Some folks are going to be listening to this and saying to themselves, it maintenance was the driver safety. What bucket does that fall into? Is there one like sweeping broad approach, that I can look at this and say whatever category the tickets in whatever section has been hit, I don't necessarily understand the details of that specific category. But I still want to challenge this because it feels to me like I'm right. And I want to fight. Is there a way to do that?
John Seidl 31:48
I'll tell you the last part of CSA score in the general overview is citations. If you get a citation, and you go to court, and they dismiss that citation with no court fees, you can do a data cue and they will remove it from your score with no history of it. However, if you get it dismissed with court costs, they're not going to remove it. So if your attorney says I can get it dismissed, but you got to pay court costs, they don't do me no favors, get it reduced. All right, reduce. So if you get a speeding violation and reduce it, equipment defect, whatever speeding score, you get, like 11 to 14 would be seven points, you get it reduced, it goes to one point. So every ticket that's reduced to a lesser charge reduces the severity of the CSA door. So what do I say, every citation you get, that affects any category of CSA, you should be going to court and challenging them. Now, if you get an overweight, or a no front plate, or if ticket for no name and DLT number, those don't affect your score. So then make an assessment. Is it worth your time and money? But if any violation hurts your score? Why wouldn't you challenge it? It's another way of reducing your doors. So you can reduce all those ways where you can lose money by having an ICF. Don't go to court plenty, we've done a few right fight. You don't even have to be right to go to court. Some of these courts just want your money. They'll plead it down to a lesser charge as long as you pay the ticket or pay more. Right. So anybody who has ever gotten a speeding ticket in their car, they know they were speeding, you go to court will still reduce it no different than trucking, just give it a shot.
Hunter Yaw 33:39
John, this has been, I think, incredibly valuable, incredibly helpful for our listeners, for fleet owners for safety directors who are out there. We want to be very clear, the best way to have great CSA scores. We're still not really sure what it stands for, except for— What did we decide CSA stands for, John?
John Seidl 33:56
It stands for “keep your scores low.” You can save a bunch of money, everybody.
Hunter Yaw 33:59
Exactly. So that's it, the number one way to do that is to be safe, to have a strong safety culture, to take safety seriously. However, there are rules, there is a system, and there's a lot of detail. It's not always obvious. It's not always clear. And you may not know that you're right. You may not know that you're right, because you don't know the rules because you don't know the regulations because you're not as deep on this. So educate yourselves, learn. Go deep, understand the details, you want to learn more, go to trucking wins.com reach out to John and his team who will obviously help you out as they have done for many trucking companies. John, we appreciate you joining sharing just the tip of the Iceberg of your wisdom in this space. Most importantly, not so that folks think they've heard everything they know everything coming out of this. But if you've heard something you didn't know, that means there's more that you didn't know, you need to be adopting technology. You need to be talking to experts. You need to be bringing all this information in for no reason other than that, the federal government, the state police, all these folks know the rules and if you don't, you are putting yourself at an informational disadvantage. And if you're We're at a disadvantage. Just like anything else in life, you're more likely to lose and we want to see our trucking companies win. That's why John built TruckingWins. And we're very grateful, John, for you for joining, sharing all this with us. And to wrap up, what do we say? And if you're right fight, I love it. So let's have everyone have that in the back of their heads. John's gonna get that tattooed on his back and everybody stay on top of the rules, stay on top of the regs, make sure what you're doing and don't let the government, don't let the state police or anybody else take advantage of you without you knowing the rules and knowing that, in fact, you could have put yourself in a much better position. That's it. Thanks very much.
John Seidl 35:32
All right. I appreciate it, man. Thank you.